WP 64 | Poverty Gospel or Prosperity Gospel: How to Steward your Finances with Jamal Jones

Written By Whitney Owens

Stewarding Your Finances with Faith: The Path Between Prosperity and Poverty Gospels in Private Practice"

In the realm of personal finances and faith, there is often a fine line between poverty and prosperity gospels, especially when it comes to entrepreneurship in private practice. It can be challenging to reconcile the demands of your business with your faith, and understanding how to steward your finances effectively can be a complex journey. In a recent episode of the Wise Practice podcast, Jamal Jones joins host Whitney Owens to discuss his experiences and insights about navigating money matters as a private practitioner and person of faith.

A Meeting of Faith and Finances:

Jamal, a successful therapist and founder of Central Valley Christian Counseling Incorporated, grew up in a Christian household with a pastor father. He was educated early on about the prosperity gospel – a religious belief that God will reward faith with health, wealth, and prosperity – and the poverty gospel, which is antithetical and associates righteousness with scarcity and minimal resources.
Jamal found his balance somewhere in between, calling it being "good stewards." It entails avoiding the extremes of poverty and prosperity gospels while toughening up to face the financial realities of running a private practice.

Increasing Rates and Value Perception:

After taking part in a mastermind group, Jamal took the bold step of increasing his session fee from $150 to $250. This change wasn't only about increasing income, but about ensuring his clients saw the value in their investment. A higher rate for therapy sessions also led to clients taking the therapy process more seriously – the increased monetary investment made the clients more committed and determined.

Offering Therapy Packages:

In addition to increasing individual session rates, Jamal introduced therapy packages. The introduction of these costed packages stemmed from a desire to have clients that were fully committed to their transformation, financially and emotionally. Jamal offers a marriage package valued at $7,500 over six months and an individual package valued at $5,000 for the same duration. His goal is to have his clients invest at the same level at which they expect results.

Conclusion:

Navigating money matters as a private practitioner and person of faith is a journey filled with lessons, growth, and the significance of valuing one’s work and time. From setting appropriate fees to learning how to communicate value effectively to clients, it is clear that balancing faith and finances may require a shift in mindset that leans toward stewardship rather than poverty or prosperity extremes. The path between prosperity and poverty gospels in private practice is sincerely about investing at a higher level not only in the business but also in transformation and growth. 


By restructuring his practice and becoming more intentional about fee-setting and communication with clients, Jamal Jones is providing an exemplary model for other practitioners who are grappling with balancing the aims of their businesses with their faith and moral framework.

What is Alma, and How Can It Help You?

  • Alma - Your private practice support system. Alma offers clinicians the opportunity to join their insurance program, providing benefits such as getting credentialed within 45 days and enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. 

Guest Resources

Links and Resources



Podcast Production and Show Notes by Course Creation Studio.

  • WP 64 | Poverty Gospel or Prosperity Gospel: How to Steward your Finances with Jamal Jones

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    [00:00:00] Whitney Owens: Going in network with insurance can be tough, such as benefits checks, catering to the insurance company's needs rather than your client needs, late payments, and at times making less than you deserve. Filling all the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious, and even when you're done. It could take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients.

    [00:00:24] Whitney Owens: That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join their insurance program, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access to enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guaranteed payment within two weeks of each appointment.

    [00:00:43] Whitney Owens: Once you've joined Alma's insurance program, you can see clients in your state of licensure, regardless of where you work from. This is particularly great when you're traveling for amazing conferences or with your family. Learn more about building a thriving private pay practice with Alma at helloalma.

    [00:01:00] Whitney Owens: com slash wise practice. That's hello, a L M a. com slash wise practice.

    Hey, hey friends, thanks for being with me today on the wise practice podcast. You were in for a treat. I interviewed a dear old friend of mine named Jamal Jones. Um, I remember the first time I ever talked to Jamal, I was like, oh my gosh, I love your voice. He has a great voice. So I was happy to have him on the podcast.

    [00:02:15] Whitney Owens: Cause I always like listening to lovely voices on the podcast, but beyond how amazing his voice is, he's got some really cool stuff for you. And as soon as we kind of brainstorming what to talk about. Uh, I immediately grabbed onto the idea of the prosperity gospel and the poverty gospel and kind of what those mean.

    [00:02:31] Whitney Owens: So you're going to enjoy my interview with Jamal today. So, I hope that your year is off to a great start. We're just a couple of weeks in. I've been thinking and kind of watching what's going on around me in 2023 and 2024 and just had a couple observations I wanted to make real quick before we get into the show.

    [00:02:51] Whitney Owens: And if you have thoughts about it, reach out to me, tell me what you think about it. I noticed in 2023, I was totally unmotivated. I don't know if you felt the same way. Like when we went from 2022 to 2023, I was like goals, please. I am not in the mood for goals, which is very unlike me. I am an Enneagram type one.

    [00:03:09] Whitney Owens: I have a type eight personality. I'm very intense. You've noticed by following me on the podcast and for me to not create goals, it's kind of wild. I actually did create one goal. And it was to hit a 1000 followers on Instagram. Um, and I know that sounds a little arrogant, but truly it is about helping fake based practice owners.

    [00:03:29] Whitney Owens: Meet 1 another and and grow together and I've actually had a few consulting clients that have come through Instagram. So that's kind of fun. Um, and I really just like making reels because it gives me a creative expression and helps me enjoy my life more. But anyway, uh, so that was my 1 goal, but. Going into 2024.

    [00:03:46] Whitney Owens: I was like, let's kill it. I got so many goals right now. I'm like, my sheet is overflowing with goals and I bet you feel the same way. So it's kind of been in the aura or in the collective unconscious. I guess you could say if you want to go Carl young on me that people were burnt out struggling going into 2023 and throughout the year.

    [00:04:10] Whitney Owens: Like, I can't think of very many people who've said 2023 was a great year, like, maybe great things happen, but it was a hard year for a lot of people and 2024 feels like gangbusters. Like we're going to get this done. We're going to get it done well. Right. So. All that to say is you probably can relate to me because you're thinking, yeah, I've been creating all my goals and I've already accomplished like three of them probably because you're getting a lot done.

    [00:04:36] Whitney Owens: And maybe some of your goals is your business goals. I definitely have some business goals for the consulting business. I definitely want to grow the podcast, have more people on the podcast and go on other shows. So if you're listening right now and you host a podcast and I would be a great guest for you, please reach out to me because I would love to come on your show.

    [00:04:54] Whitney Owens: Um, and I also want to have you on my show so that we can grow our followings together and help more people find therapists, more people, find faith based counselors, more people find God, honestly. So reach out to me if you want to talk about podcasting together and. A lot of you probably have goals about your private practice.

    [00:05:14] Whitney Owens: Maybe you have a certain income level you want to get to. Maybe you want to hire your 1st therapist. Maybe you want to take your caseload from 5 or 10 clients a week 20 clients a week. Maybe you're a advanced group practice owner and you're wanting to scale your practice because you've been working too hard.

    [00:05:30] Whitney Owens: Right. That was something that I've been thinking about as I reviewed my numbers from 2023 and I was even talking to my accountant yesterday. I was like, I put a lot of my energy into the consulting business because it's kind of a baby business and I'm working it up and, um, I have some exciting things that are coming down the pipeline that you'll hear about later.

    [00:05:48] Whitney Owens: Um, but for. The group practice. Yeah, I've got some goals. I got some cool stuff. That's going to happen, but it really does run like a well, old machine and I'm really grateful for it. It's been 10 years since I've had the practice. I've had the group practice for 5 or 6. I'd have to think about it and it runs well.

    [00:06:06] Whitney Owens: And I've known how to tweak my hiring, how to scale it, how to grow it. And it really doesn't take a lot of my time and it's wonderful. I just love it. And yes, the most of my income comes from that. And yeah, I do make money off consulting, but I do it cause I love it. I just love you guys and hanging out with you.

    [00:06:25] Whitney Owens: So all that to say is maybe you have an advanced group practice and you're thinking, I want it to just run without me really having to do very much. Right. If you're like thinking you want to make some of these changes in your practice, reach out to me. Let's do this. Okay. Let's get your practice where you want it to be.

    [00:06:43] Whitney Owens: By the end of the year. Okay. So if you were interested in, maybe individual consulting group, consulting the membership community, there's so many ways to get involved, go to my website and just fill out the application and I'll throw the link in the show notes to a quick application for you to complete takes, I don't know, a minute and then somebody from my team will reach out to you and chat with you on a quick phone call about what your needs are and we'll get you connected to the best place.

    [00:07:08] Whitney Owens: If it's individual consulting group, a retreat, whatever it is. So I'm excited for 2024 and I know we have big things coming and I would love to be a part of that in your life and I appreciate you being with me and spending the time on this podcast, the podcast. I was looking at my numbers from 2022 to 2023.

    [00:07:29] Whitney Owens: Really? It doesn't do it justice because the podcast started November 2022, but has grown a lot. It's because of you guys listening. And the feedback you're giving me and sharing it with your friends. So if you want to do me a solid share the podcast with your friends, write me a review, it means the world to me.

    [00:07:48] Whitney Owens: So, but let's get into the meat of the episode. With my boy Jamal Jones, and he's going to talk about the prosperity gospel versus the poverty gospel. And it's a really cool idea and the way we were all trained as therapists and within the Christian communities. And then he's going to talk about how to make more money in your practice without having to work harder and the packages that he has created for working with clients.

    [00:08:11] Whitney Owens: So I'm looking forward to sharing that with you and he also does coaching as well. So if you're listening and you're like, dang, I really can relate to him or I need to create these packages, please reach out to Jamal. He's awesome. I've known him for years. Think the world of him and I know he'd be helpful for you in running your practice.

    [00:08:29] Whitney Owens: So all right, we're going to jump into episode number 64.

    [00:08:33] Whitney Owens: Today on the last practice podcast, I'm excited to be hanging out with an, uh, dear friend that I've known for years, the Jamal Jones. So Jamal has his LMFT license that he got in 2017. And then he launched his private practice in 2019 and he's located in Oakland, California as a multi. passionate entrepreneur.

    [00:09:00] Whitney Owens: He has founded Central Valley Christian Counseling Incorporated where he offers therapy services to individuals and couples. He also established the Purpose Driven Therapist. It's a platform that provides mindset, marketing, and sales training for fellow therapists. Jamal combines his faith, sports, and mental health expertise to assist individuals and couples in navigating the complexities of mental health and relationships.

    [00:09:22] Whitney Owens: He is happily married to Maddie for nine years, and they have a second grader, Grace. Jamal, thanks for hanging out with me today.

    [00:09:31] Jamal Jones: Thank you, Whitney. You are welcome. And just to clarify, I was raised in East Oakland.

    [00:09:38] Whitney Owens: Okay. Sorry if I said that incorrect. Okay.

    [00:09:40] Jamal Jones: And I live in

    [00:09:41] Whitney Owens: Fresno, California, Fresno. Thank you.

    [00:09:44] Whitney Owens: I appreciate that. Sorry about that. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I need to obviously get out there and get to know the area better. So, okay, cool. So I'm excited to have you on the show. Um, before we kind of got on here, we were talking a little bit about money mindset and Christianity and it gets so complicated. So I'd love for you to kind of help us navigate that, talk through it.

    [00:10:05] Whitney Owens: The idea of prosperity, gospel, poverty, gospel, all the things. So, Can you kind of get us going here and I'm sure I'll have some questions for you along the way.

    [00:10:14] Jamal Jones: Yeah. And in order to do that, if you don't mind, I want to share a little bit about my background and how I grew up because the way I grew up and my parents, uh, spiritual influence on me and what I learned about finances growing up in my faith really has played an intricate role in my growth as a adult and as an entrepreneur.

    [00:10:38] Jamal Jones: Yeah. Tell me more about that. My father is a. He's not retired, but he's a pastor and my mother is a devout woman of faith. So I was fortunate to grow up in a Christian home with both my parents, all five siblings, an intact family. And basically I'm a PK. Um, I've been involved in the life of the church all my life.

    [00:11:02] Jamal Jones: Um, I'm also a former pastor. And as you know, there's so many different nuances that comes along with being a person of faith and how do you navigate that and be your authentic self in the real world. And so for me, one theme in my life is my money story. Uh, what role does God play in my life, uh, in the life of my family and my business when it comes to finances.

    [00:11:28] Jamal Jones: And I remember when I left home to go to college at Fresno State, uh, my dad being a pastor and really caring about theology. Uh, he was really making sure that I understood what this prosperity gospel was. Um, this Spiritual belief system that like, if you're a Christ follower, that because you're a Christ follower, uh, you're entitled to like a life of health, uh, wealth and prosperity.

    [00:11:55] Jamal Jones: And, and though there is some truth in terms of being blessed and experiencing God's grace, not everybody is, is meant to have a certain amount of health or wealth over the course of their life. But this way of thinking, um, is influential in the faith communities. And so what I kind of adopted myself was, you could say, I made a vow to poverty and I embrace the poverty gospel and both of these gospels, you know, the poverty gospel is when you associate, uh, scarcity and minimal resources, limited, uh, finances, and, and you associate it as righteousness and holiness, um, in contrast to the prosperity gospel, the kind of the same thing, you And so really what I've come to discover is that God called us to be good stewards between the poverty gospel and prosperity gospel.

    [00:12:59] Jamal Jones: Both of those are extremes. And in the middle, you find people who are devout people of faith, um, who love Jesus and they're just good stewards of their time and their resources. And that's really important when it comes to small business and being entrepreneurs.

    [00:13:19] Whitney Owens: Oh, I love how you explain that. And so really your father was kind of teaching you one way and you ran the opposite direction.

    [00:13:25] Whitney Owens: It sounds like.

    [00:13:27] Jamal Jones: And even before he taught me that one way, um, I was already subconsciously influenced toward the poverty gospel. Uh, but when in that season, when he was really emphasizing it, it just kind of made it go deeper into my subconscious.

    [00:13:45] Whitney Owens: Yeah, I think so many of us can relate to your story as far as we've been in one bucket or the other, maybe.

    [00:13:51] Whitney Owens: Um, and I, I can think of times in my own life, even in different communities of faith where this community was more prosperity and this one was more poverty and like trying to find that sweet spot that you're talking about stewardship. I love that use that word. It's so hard to find that, that place and not be so black and white.

    [00:14:09] Jamal Jones: It is. And it's a daily journey. Everybody has their own life story and experiences. And God's always working in people's hearts and minds. Um, but when we take it, make a decision to actually kind of do some internal work and explore within ourselves, and we might be amazed at what we discover.

    [00:14:33] Whitney Owens: Yeah. So you started your practice four years ago.

    [00:14:36] Whitney Owens: Is that right? 2019. Okay. And so I'm just curious, where were you at with your mindset on money when you started your private practice?

    [00:14:47] Jamal Jones: Well, when I found my practice, um, even though I started a business, I was still doing ministry in the business. As a matter of fact, Whitney, I remember being in a mastermind with you.

    [00:14:59] Jamal Jones: This was a pivotal moment for me because you were doing this six month mastermind, which I was a part of, and you were helping me out. And I sent you my, uh, profit and loss statement so that you can see my numbers. And coach me up and give me more clarity and do you, do you remember what you saw? I don't.

    [00:15:21] Whitney Owens: So now I'm like nervous.

    [00:15:26] Jamal Jones: You don't have to be nervous, but what you saw, you saw that I was a solo practitioner and I have confided in you how much I was struggling financially as an entrepreneur at that point in time. And I sent you my profit and loss statement and the feedback you gave me was powerful because you saw that I was.

    [00:15:52] Jamal Jones: Tithing from my net income. Okay. I do remember that now. And not only was I tithing for my net income, um, I'm losing my train of thought. Not only was I tithing for my net income, but I was not investing in marketing.

    [00:16:15] Jamal Jones: And when you combine those two of basically 10 percent of my net income that was coming in as a solopreneur, having these one to one sessions, that was a heavy burden I was placing on myself. And you, you had made a remark that you're like, your mom, what are you investing marketing? Like what kind of return on investment are you getting when you put your resources out?

    [00:16:39] Jamal Jones: So I want to thank you for that 30 that you gave at that time. It was a game changer.

    [00:16:43] Whitney Owens: Hmm. Well, I appreciate you saying that. And we all know that it's really the Lord telling us what we need to do, right? I'm glad to use that. Me too. Yeah. So what changed after that for you?

    [00:16:58] Jamal Jones: Well, um, at one point my fees were at one 50 for individual sessions with my adult clients and I eventually increased my fee to two 50 after doing some internal work and get more comfortable with having fee increased conversations.

    [00:17:19] Jamal Jones: And being more comfortable with, like, studying my fee with confidence and giving prospective clients an opportunity, an opportunity to invest at that level. But for me, what I discovered was the one to one traditional model of therapy isn't a good fit for me because it leads to burnout. Like, if I have fees that are too low.

    [00:17:44] Jamal Jones: And I'm seeing all these clients at a low price point. Um, it's just difficult to maintain a good work life balance. It's difficult and how it impacts how I show up in my marriage and in my family life. And so as I've been kind of growing as an entrepreneur and doing research and being parts of Mastermind, just trying to find different ways to stay true to my calling.

    [00:18:07] Jamal Jones: Because I feel called to this industry and I want to be here long term. And basically I had to come to realize that if I'm going to be in this industry long term, I want to have to make some changes and so this year, I totally changed the way I do business as a solo practitioner and I now offer therapy packages.

    [00:18:29] Jamal Jones: Yeah,

    [00:18:30] Whitney Owens: but before we get into that, I want to ask you a quick question because I bet there's people listening right now that just got totally stopped when we went from 150 to 250. Okay, because I think that's really amazing and so I, I want you to kind of like hit on that for people. If someone's listening, they're like, what you erase your rate by 100.

    [00:18:50] Whitney Owens: I can't do that. You know, I would love for you to kind of speak to those people almost like, as a coach, if they were here with us now, what would you say to them about that?

    [00:19:00] Jamal Jones: As a licensed mental health care practitioner who has earned the right and responsibility to practice independently. One important mindset shift that you need to have when you go into private practice is to realize that as an entrepreneur, you are responsible for your income.

    [00:19:25] Jamal Jones: You as the small business owner, you determine how much you want to make. And that decision needs to be an informed decision. Based upon the reality of your student loans, the reality of your cost of living, like, in my case, um, I want to optimize my income, uh, because I want to provide the best possible living, not only for my family and myself, but my company also has all these operational expenses.

    [00:19:55] Jamal Jones: And what I did when I first came into the industry with me, I just looked on psychology today and I would look at this person and this organization and say, okay, I'm licensed. Oh, they've been licensed for X amount of years. So I'm going to go ahead and charge more 50, just like them. But one of the healthiest things that you can do as an entrepreneur is to actually get out of your comfort zone and to look at if you have debt, how much debt you have, uh, look at your household expenses, your company expenses, and that alone will drastically change how you think about setting your fee.

    [00:20:33] Whitney Owens: So you're really thinking backwards there. Kinda.

    [00:20:36] Jamal Jones: You're thinking about, you're thinking backwards about your income goal. Cause if you go, if you, if you had the mindset of, oh, I just charged one 25 and I, and I just see 25, 25 people in a week,

    [00:20:54] Jamal Jones: that's not going to lead down a very good path for you.

    [00:20:58] Whitney Owens: No, it's not. Okay. So when you raised your rates, did you lose all your clients?

    [00:21:04] Jamal Jones: No, I did lose some. Okay. And it goes back to the mindset. Because what I realized in that process, at one point, I was a practitioner with an insurance based mindset and a scarcity mindset.

    [00:21:22] Jamal Jones: And so what that meant was, I would attract clients who were insurance based clients. An insurance based client does not want to invest their personal resources in their transformation. So some of the clients that I lost were insurance based clients, and I had to be okay with that. It wasn't anything personal against me.

    [00:21:44] Jamal Jones: It's just, these are people who are hardworking, they're investing a significant amount of resources in insurance already, and they prefer to use their insurance. And that's great. And so I had to become more comfortable with recognizing that and referring them to, to their insurance, or other providers that I trusted that I knew would take that, uh, take their insurance.

    [00:22:09] Whitney Owens: Yeah, that's such a good point and realizing who your ideal client is and the investment they want to make in therapy. I love that you said that. Yeah. Okay. So you said you kind of changed the way you were doing payments with clients and you start talking about packages. I want to hear more about that.

    [00:22:24] Jamal Jones: Yeah. So, um, this year. Um, I've been just doing more learning and growing and I'm actually in a, a mastermind that kind of influenced me to start thinking about offering therapy packages. 1 of the challenges that we face as practitioners is oftentimes we have our clients show up and have heartedly, they might be going through mental distress.

    [00:22:54] Jamal Jones: They may be experiencing any myriad of mental health problems individually, but they show up. Not fully committed or vested to their own transformation. And so they'll do a consultation and they'll come for one or two sessions. If they just kind of ghost you sometimes, or they'll stay with you, but they're showing up and they're not implementing things that are important to implement.

    [00:23:22] Jamal Jones: And so what I've discovered is this year I, I took a bold step and I said, I'm going to offer these a package and I now offer a marriage package that's valued at. 7, 500 over the course of six months and the individual package that's valued at 5, 000 over a period of six months. And it's been wonderful to actually see that there are people out there who, if I value myself and I value my time and my expertise and what I'm offering to them, and they see the value themselves, like they're hungry.

    [00:24:03] Jamal Jones: They want, they want transformation. They want to be better. They don't want to be as depressed as they were before they met me. They don't want to be as anxious as they were before they met me. And as a provider, once you kind of be comfortable with who you are, and confident in your offer, and the value that you offer to that person, that's the other thing I'll add before I'll stop here, is that these packages are based on the value of the transformation.

    [00:24:30] Jamal Jones: Which is a different mindset than thinking about trading dollars for hours.

    [00:24:35] Whitney Owens: The value of the transformation.

    [00:24:37] Jamal Jones: The value of the transformation. That alone will change the trajectory of your business. It's a different mindset. And I've seen it happen. And that's why I reached out to you. Because I have to get this message out to as many folks as possible.

    [00:24:55] Jamal Jones: Because we are trained. We are conditioned to trade our dollars for hours. And that business model is not as, it's not as profitable or sustainable. If you want to really be a successful entrepreneur and build your brand and being it for the long haul.

    [00:25:18] Whitney Owens: Hmm. I love that. I love that mindset shift. That was spot on.

    [00:25:23] Whitney Owens: So thank you for that little nugget, lots of nuggets today, but that was, I love that. Okay. So when you started offering your packages to clients, I would love to hear the responses you were getting from clients when you would tell them the cost of the packages.

    [00:25:41] Jamal Jones: Um,

    [00:25:45] Jamal Jones: it's amazing the response, uh, some clients will hear that it's a package and if it's, if it's just out of their budget and it's not feasible. They'll say thank you and they'll keep moving on to the next call and that's going to happen, uh, because some people just don't have the resources to make that investment.

    [00:26:06] Jamal Jones: However, I have several stories. Um, I'll share 1 at this point in time. I was offering a marriage counseling package that was value at 10, 000 dollars. And I had a consultation with a couple and of course, the nature of marriage counseling, it's very emotionally charged and you know, he's sharing, she's sharing.

    [00:26:33] Jamal Jones: And when we got to the part about the investment of 10, 000, the husband began to calculate and figure out how to make, figure out how to do it.

    [00:26:46] Jamal Jones: And the conversation continued and it was out of, it was out of their budget at the time. But what I realized in that specific conversation was they were motivated And he was ready to move forward, but I actually had made some mistakes and how I handled them in that consultation. Okay. Because once you adjust to this package model, your responsibility as a provider.

    [00:27:17] Jamal Jones: Who's doing the intake and listening to their concerns. And how you respond to their concerns and how you present the offer to them. There's all kinds of different skills that we have as therapists. That once we refine them, it's amazing how we can increase our conversion rates. And I'll share one more story.

    [00:27:38] Jamal Jones: I had another couple who at the time, again, the investment for marriage counseling was 10, 000. Uh, this was fun right here, Whitney, because this was a couple where, you know, one person wanted like more of a commitment from the other. And basically I watched. One person in the relationship, hold the other person's feet to the fire.

    [00:28:08] Jamal Jones: It's like, do you like, so what do you want to do? Like, do you want this? Like, are you going to make this an event? And I just sat there quietly and I was like, wow. And they committed this couple actually committed to the 10, 000. Uh, they would end up investing about 1, 600 before one person had medical problems.

    [00:28:30] Jamal Jones: And again, that was a lesson for me in terms of this couple had committed to investing 10, 000. In the mirror of transformation, but I, as the provider, as a professional, I did not secure enough of that deposit up front. Um, and so once they agreed, I was so and this is my 1st couple. I was so excited actually that they were willing to make.

    [00:28:58] Jamal Jones: I was like, wow, this is real. Like, they're actually going to do it. I was, I was actually so excited. I was like, okay, they're committed. I'll just, I'll just let them figure it out. If they want to invest in K and marriage transformation, I'll let them figure it out. So again, you can see my own personal growth and my own having to learn from experiences.

    [00:29:20] Jamal Jones: It's been a growing process. So now I'm in a much healthier place as a, as a professional where, um, I can have a consultation. I can state the fee. I can be quiet and be comfortable and let them. It's more streamlined now.

    [00:29:35] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Oh, I love all that. I love that you're speaking with vulnerability here. And I think we all can relate to your story in a way.

    [00:29:42] Whitney Owens: Like I remember the first time someone wanted to pay me for therapy or the first time I raised my rate and they wanted to pay or when I was consulting, gosh, I'd get so nervous on those calls, trying to get these people to purchase these consulting packages. And it was really, and you probably, probably could say the same thing here.

    [00:29:58] Whitney Owens: It was when I really surrendered and was like, you know what? I don't really care if they get the package or not. I actually just want to help them. And if my, if I get paid great money, that is awesome. And I deserve it. And I work hard, but I just really want to help this person in their practice. Or you're thinking, I want to transform this marriage with this couple, right?

    [00:30:16] Whitney Owens: Yes. Yes.

    [00:30:18] Jamal Jones: Yeah. Um, because we are so, especially as people of faith, uh, believers, many of us are heart heart centered, um, people driven entrepreneurs. We. We believe in the mission of mental health. We believe like this is a calling for me. This is not a career. I mean, this is, this is a vocational entrepreneurial journey, uh, for me.

    [00:30:43] Jamal Jones: And I genuinely love people. And this, my practice is a way for me to demonstrate and express my love for people. It's also a way for us as members in the body of Christ to share our gifts, both inside the body of Christ and outside the body of Christ. And so my nature is to want to help to want to serve at the highest level of excellence, and I've had to really learn and grow and develop as a professional as a businessman, like, we are businessmen and women.

    [00:31:19] Jamal Jones: We are entrepreneurs. And with that comes a lot of risk and liability. And it behooves us to take time to actually think about all of those risk and liability and be proactive and making sure that we have appropriate fees in place and not only fees, but other practice policies. I'll share something else with you, Whitney.

    [00:31:40] Jamal Jones: I had a day this year, um, I received 2 emails in 1 day and they were like, I think, like. Less than a minute apart, 1 email was from a client asking for a letter to go on.

    [00:32:02] Jamal Jones: The other was from a client asking for a letter to help with his custody. Battle to get more time with his kids. I'll ask you, Whitney, what, what usually happens when we get requests for letters?

    [00:32:18] Whitney Owens: Oh, golly. I mean, I guess it depends on what they're asking for specifically. But I do everything I can to not write the letter, is what you're telling me.

    [00:32:29] Whitney Owens: Especially in divorce cases, we don't touch those because we're not trained, at least my practice, we're not trained to do custody evaluation stuff. I have to refer those out. I do the FMLA and I do it as simply as possible.

    [00:32:41] Jamal Jones: Um, so there is a judgment call there where based upon our relationship with our client and our assessment and what we're working on, it's a case by case basis.

    [00:32:53] Jamal Jones: There are times when it's unwise to write. Definitely. So it's a judgment call, but these are two clients on my caseload again, because I charge higher rates. Um, I have more time, space and energy to be present with my clients and I feel like I have a better relationship and rapport with them. So, when these emails came through, I felt like I had a good pulse on their character.

    [00:33:20] Jamal Jones: Like this, like this dad, based upon what I'm seeing in treatment, he's not, he's not a perfect dad. But he's a faithful dad. Uh, he, he, he still respects his now, you know, ex wife and, um, he's a father and clinically, we understand the value of having that contact and relationship with both parents. So with this, um, client, I felt comfortable writing a letter.

    [00:33:48] Jamal Jones: But this time, because in the past, I've written letters, but in the past, I'll do it for free. This time, I let both these clients know the investment is 500. And now that's a whole nother source of income for us, right? If it's clinically appropriate, um, and we're comfortable writing a letter, we don't have to do it for free.

    [00:34:17] Jamal Jones: It's my point. We don't have to, like, be up in the middle of the night, uh, figure out how to work over the weekend because we had so many sessions during the week and put all that, that thought into this legal document. As a mental health care professional, uh, you have a legal expertise. Your staff have legal expertise.

    [00:34:40] Jamal Jones: And sometimes it's very appropriate to let them know that, okay, we can provide this service, but in doing that, that means that my staff person, if you're a group practice owner, that means my staff person is still going to have their sessions. You pay for this session today, but where are we going to find the time and the resources and the capacity for them to figure out how to write a 1 page legal document to submit to the court?

    [00:35:10] Whitney Owens: Yeah, yeah, we've got all that in our paperwork too. Like, we're gonna have to bill you for that and then when all the calls you have to do with the attorney or whatever they need it's. It's more billing for the client and I love what you said earlier that I think is so important is those deposits up front and I've definitely made those mistakes to clinically like with legal stuff, just not getting those deposits up front and the importance of that.

    [00:35:34] Jamal Jones: Yes. Um, because the key to the package model one of the keys to it is commitment. Yeah, like you're saying that you're in distress. You're saying that you're stressed out and, and that you're really unhappy and that you want something to change in your life. And so when you have this, these consultations, there's a moment there where we both want to know, well, are you committed to this process?

    [00:36:06] Jamal Jones: That's right. Like if you really want to change, if you really want to grow, if you really want to implement some of the things that I can teach you to implement, if you really, if you really believe in the destination that we're talking about here. Are you committed? Yeah. And one of the best ways I think about it is scripture says where our treasure is, our heart is also.

    [00:36:32] Jamal Jones: And so as a provider, like, I've had enough clients who show up and they, they, they no show, they lay cancel, they come in, um, have heartedly, they come for two, three sessions, and then ghost you disappear. I've been there. I've done that. I'm going to play some kind of practice where God allows me to work with people who actually are motivated.

    [00:36:56] Jamal Jones: They want to invest at a high level. They want transformation. And so 1 way for them to show that is to put is to put the is to put a deposit down up front. Yeah, and when that happens, um, it changes how they show up and it makes our job easier as a provider.

    [00:37:19] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when people are putting more money in, they're more committed.

    [00:37:25] Whitney Owens: They're more determined. And yeah, I think it's that money mindset change. It's not about me making a bunch of money. It's, it's wanting the clients to gain something from the therapy. And if I don't charge enough, they're not as invested.

    [00:37:37] Jamal Jones: We want our clients to invest at the level at which they expect results because they put so much.

    [00:37:47] Jamal Jones: When you think about assessing for suicide. Assessing for homicide assessing for CPS reports and just all the all the legal stress and the ethics of our profession and for somebody to come to us really believing that we can be a value to them. A lot of times, we carry a lot of pressure, we feel an onus of responsibility to like deliver.

    [00:38:15] Jamal Jones: And this. Industry is filled with wonderful people who actually do their absolute best to deliver our part. What I've seen is that there are clients who don't show up with that same intentionality, that same effort. And so our rates, our rates are directly tied to the standard of care that we provide.

    [00:38:42] Jamal Jones: Because when a client invests 125 for a session, they're going to show up at 125 per session. Yeah. But when a client invests 3, 500 deposits on marriage counseling, how much do you think that person cares about their marriage?

    [00:38:59] Whitney Owens: A lot. Yeah. Oh, this is so great. Well, we can talk about this all day and, uh, so many mindset things here and I'm learning so much.

    [00:39:09] Whitney Owens: And, um, but I also want you to share a little bit about, you know, you're doing, you do coaching with therapists and helping them with mindset on this. So can you share a little bit about your coaching and how people get in touch with you?

    [00:39:21] Jamal Jones: Yeah. So as I've been going through my own personal development and my transformation, I just want to get this.

    [00:39:28] Jamal Jones: I want to help as many other mental health entrepreneurs as possible. And those I say mental health entrepreneurs, I'm very intentional about that because it's important for us to see ourselves as entrepreneurs and small business owners, as opposed to just private practitioners. And so I established a purpose driven therapist and the mission of purpose driven therapist.

    [00:39:54] Jamal Jones: It's to help mental health entrepreneurs have greater impact in the lives of their clients and at the same time have more income without any, uh, fear, guilt, shame tied to it and have a better work life balance. And so what I'm doing now is I'm offering free consultations are free discovery calls for anybody who's in private practice are thinking about private practice.

    [00:40:23] Jamal Jones: And you want to either change the way you do your business so that you have a better work life balance. You need help around your fee setting, your business mindset, your money mindset, uh, your marketing and your sales, uh, because we get so much training with like our CEUs and our clinical development.

    [00:40:42] Jamal Jones: And some of us, like myself, once you get into like the marketing aspect of being a business owner and the selling aspect of it, uh, I know sales can have some negative connotations tied to it, but it's a reality what we do. There's a, there's a God honoring, uh, humble, ethical way to give people an opportunity to do business with us.

    [00:41:05] Jamal Jones: And so those are the key areas that we focus on in my coaching program. Uh, it's mindset is foundational, but then the marketing piece, cause if you're private pay, it's a different clientele, your marketing tour. And it's a different way to communicate to the, to your dream clients, but you can have the mindset.

    [00:41:25] Jamal Jones: And the Dream Planes show up for us on a regular basis. Um, but if you're not intentional about how you communicate with them and communicate value and invite them to invest in their own transformation, that you're seeing tens of thousands of dollars walk away.

    [00:41:44] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Mm hmm. That's awesome. Well, and on your form you filled out for coming on the show, you did offer 10 percent off for any of our audience.

    [00:41:52] Whitney Owens: So last practice podcast listeners, um, hook up with Jamal, how do you, how do they get in

    [00:41:57] Jamal Jones: touch with you? You can find me on LinkedIn, uh, Jamal Jones on LinkedIn. Um, you can also go to my, the Purpose Driven Therapist landing page. Um, you can also, uh, go to my clinical, uh, website, which is centerofbodychristiancouncil.

    [00:42:18] Jamal Jones: com. And, um, I'll be happy to connect with anybody who, even if you just want to ask some questions, um, I'll be happy to answer your questions, but I just want to help as many people as possible. And for those of you who want to work with me one on one, I'll be, I'll be honored to help you in that way.

    [00:42:38] Whitney Owens: Awesome. I just want to speak about you for just a few minutes here at the end as we're closing up and I'm just like thrilled to get to talk to you and like, see the transformation, like when you're saying my journey, what I've learned, like you, you mean it, like I can see that in you and your confidence is amazing.

    [00:42:55] Whitney Owens: So I love that. And when I think about the mastermind group that you were in, one thing I always really admired about you was you were slow and steady. You know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs feel like this need to hustle and move and go and, and they don't really take the time to really think about what is my business.

    [00:43:13] Whitney Owens: What do I want it to be? What lifestyle do I want? And I think you really exemplify someone who has done that work and is helping others do that work, that it's okay to think about your business. You don't have to be hustling all the time. You can have the income you want and slow down and price it right.

    [00:43:30] Whitney Owens: And you know, you also, you don't have to be a group practice owner. Like. You don't have to have all that headache. And it's like wonderful to figure out kind of where you land and not doing it because everyone else is doing it. And so that's something I always really admired about you.

    [00:43:45] Jamal Jones: Well, thank you, Whitney.

    [00:43:46] Jamal Jones: I really enjoyed, uh, it's been wonderful to know you and to experience you and your business, Acumen is. Amazing.

    [00:43:56] Whitney Owens: Oh, well thank you very much. Well, it's an honor to know you as well and I just love the people God puts us with on this journey. And, uh, excited to have you on the show and been promoting you, um, and your business coaching.

    [00:44:07] Whitney Owens: So I appreciate all the information you gave us today and I hope that people are gonna go raise their rates now.

    [00:44:15] Jamal Jones: Raise your rates 'cause it's do it going to the new year. Do it.

    [00:44:18] Whitney Owens: That's right. All right, well thank you again for coming on the show.

    [00:44:22] Jamal Jones: You are welcome, Whitney. Thanks for having me.

    ​

    [00:44:42] Whitney Owens: Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The Wise Practice Podcast is part of the Sitecraft Podcast Network, a collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives. To learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network, head on over to sitecraftnetwork.

    [00:45:02] Whitney Owens: com. The Wise Practice Podcast represents the opinions of Whitney Owens and her guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and the content should not be taken as legal advice. If you have legal questions, please consult an attorney.

    ​



Whitney Owens https://whitneyowens.com
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